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Audio Refugees • View topic - this is for jaymz (and anyone else interested)

this is for jaymz (and anyone else interested)

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this is for jaymz (and anyone else interested)

Postby pharquartt » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:34 am

not trying to be argumentative, but this article gives some pretty thorough argument on the subject of mastering and the modern day treatment.

i agree with the author. lighten up on the compression.

http://www.audioholics.com/education/au ... depression


:rock:
now is the infinite opposite
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Re: this is for jaymz (and anyone else interested)

Postby mistertroll » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:50 am

:thumb:
Keep your booger hook off the bang switch and nobody gets hurt.

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Re: this is for jaymz (and anyone else interested)

Postby syberberg » Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:55 am

Anyone else who's interested in preserving dynamic range and not having it destroyed by brick wall limiting, might be interested in knowing about this lot:



Have a dig around and you'll understand why the "loudness wars" are bad and end up making listening to music that has had that treatment unlistenable for long periods of time. Be sure to watch the video on thweir front page by Matt Mayfield.

This is s subject I care a lot about.
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Re: this is for jaymz (and anyone else interested)

Postby cjdenecia » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:28 pm

thanks sy .... over the last few days, I've continued my reading on it - as I had been for quite some time prior to seeing these writings.

but on the defense of the brick wall, to an extent, a certain amount of compression does need to be used for certain types of music and for certain listening environments.

not to the extent of the volume wars where it just wears you down and turns a song into a wall of sound but sometimes ...

what will be coming somewhere down the line if the insiders know what's good for them - will to be a scenario where music is recorded dynamically and the playback equipment is built to accommodate listening environments. think about it, players that utilize compression (after the fact) software built upon a number of normal yet personalized environments.

I mean, we don't get to choose where people listen to our music ... with your stuff sy - what if they developed the auto presets to handle listening to your stuff smoking a doob and listening thru cans but at the same time could maximize it so the same material could be listened to in a car at 80 MPH with the windows wide open and the dog barking and the kids punching each other in the ear?

that'll be good stuff. and it'll happen. the manufacturers tried it already with preset eq's but that's stupid, it will need to go into the mix and do it's stuff - not just treat the final mastering. and it will make mixing more of an artform again cus there'll be no more brick wall mastering.

the problem is, the public isn't crying out for it cus they don't know it can be done and frankly, I have to believe a lot of them wouldn't even care. somebody who's listening to tunes through a cellphone earplug isn't likely to be sensitive to dynamics now are they? but if they were to hear what they're missing again - maybe, just maybe, they'd appreciate a more sonic experience.

but it does mean making available choices cus every approach is right for some situations in mastering.

but
you can't handle the truth.

nor do you want to ...
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Re: this is for jaymz (and anyone else interested)

Postby jaymz » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:33 am

I skimmed through the article and really, none of it applies to me. But just so we can all be on the same page;

1. I don't currently play jazz. The style of music I play by nature has a persistent and fairly flat dynamic range.

2. The argument that by altering the Mona Lisa for the sake of commercialism implies that I have created something similar to the Mona Lisa. 'Preciatte that, but it's far from true.

3. The argument that I am somehow mastering with heavy compression for commercialism reasons is also inaccurate. I want to have nothing to do with mastering in the end. My songs are simply demo's. I tend to spend a lot of time mixing and writing them. i tend to go through version after version. I'm a musician first and that's where my time is spent. If I were to really start to master, I would have to quit my job, because I would go insane with all the time it would take to properly master 10 songs all recorded over a period of 2-3 years with various gremlins introduced through out those various processes. Instead, I put it through izotope with a preset called 'alt rock' cause that is what i play. It pumps in my car, and that's about it.

4. These are demos. When a CD comes into fruition, everything will be sent off to someone who masters for a living. That wouldn't be me.

5. It's all entirely subjective. i hear the argument that heavy compression kills the music and masks the true sound. Apparently there are thousands of record labels in the world who think people like that kind of stuff, because they are buying it and listening to it. It's just another form of recording, this high ceiling concept. As our systems get better, some forms of music tend to push the envelope.

Here.. let's take some practical examples.

How many times have you been to a concert and it was louder than it needed to be? I mean, in the sense that you could still enjoy the music if it was quieter and more legible? Still, many rock bands in the world crank it up, it's the energy they believe is important.

By nature the thought of taking a stringed instrument, running it through vacuum tubes, poking holes in the speaker cones and delebrately creating noise to achieve a certain sound.. well that's just silly. Bach would have had a heart attack. Yet, here we are with our Marshalls and over driven Hammond's attempting to push those sounds to higher levels.. it's energy.

It is true that squashing dynamics in music that tends to be based on the dynamic and variation of amplitude is generally a bad idea. Chick Corea and the Electric band still did it, albeit not in say the way.. breaking Benjamin has. Different styles.

I give you.

http://www.dallasnetworks.net/media/02- ... me_abr.mp3

Popular Song. About as squashed as one can get.

http://www.dallasnetworks.net/media/03% ... 20Head.mp3

Popular Song.. different style.. it breathes because it's supposed to. You aren't in your car cranking it to 100 dB while driving 130 kmh on the Autobahn. And if you are, you are weird.

It's not a new concept, it probably started with Hysteria by Def Leppard. load that thing up in Sound Forge and you'll just see one large blue bar.

Having said all of that, it is subjective - but to be honest when the time comes to master my music for real, I won't be the one making that call. It's just easier and quicker right now.

I 'do' understand the concepts of recording music, believe it or not.
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Re: this is for jaymz (and anyone else interested)

Postby pharquartt » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:05 am

now is the infinite opposite
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Re: this is for jaymz (and anyone else interested)

Postby jaymz » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:20 pm

my inflection was one of jest, i assure you.
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Re: this is for jaymz (and anyone else interested)

Postby Buddy » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:48 pm

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Re: this is for jaymz (and anyone else interested)

Postby cjdenecia » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:47 am

you can't handle the truth.

nor do you want to ...
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Re: this is for jaymz (and anyone else interested)

Postby jaymz » Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:44 pm

There is nothing wrong with pericing your nut bag.
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Re: this is for jaymz (and anyone else interested)

Postby slywitt » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:25 pm

Orationem pulchram non habens, scribo ista linea in lingua Latina
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Re: this is for jaymz (and anyone else interested)

Postby ROXI » Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:09 pm

.
In a world of Zombies, I'm alone with a match, a beer and a bong, and my heart has turned into stone. Glorify only what you want your child to emulate
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Re: this is for jaymz (and anyone else interested)

Postby cjdenecia » Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:13 am

you can't handle the truth.

nor do you want to ...
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Re: this is for jaymz (and anyone else interested)

Postby Jim Mason » Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:19 am

well, I do a lot of this sort of thing. For me i pretty much have to do what the client wants me to do. Some people get really upset if their songs aren't as loud as their favorite band. Pumping up the volume is not a hard thing to do but I explain to them why tit might not be a good idea. Your basically smashing the guts out of it. To be honest, most Rock doesn't have much dynamic range anyway so what the #$#%.

Left to my own, I always compromise between quality and loudness. There is a fine line but personally my masters would tend to be a little quieter than a commercial master.

The beauty of being an Indie artist is that it really doesn't matter. If you want it loud..... make it loud, If you want your song to breath and have dynamics......don't make it loud.

you could write a book on this subject but one thing about music is that it should be subjective. I wish people wouldn't get so hung up on what the famous people are doing.... because to be honest the 'famous' people are turning music into one big loud turd..... but it becomes the paradigm so that is what people think is normal.

So be Indie and do it your way.

One thing I do want to mention about loudness is this : The less compression you put on the individual tracks the better you will be in the mastering stage (if loudness is your goal). A lot of times I have to use an expander to try and open the sound back up so I can add a compressor/limiter to make it loud without making it sound like total poo. This tends to happen with heavy metal bands and they wonder why i can't make them sound like metallica. A good but loud master really starts at the mix.

blah blah blah :hammer:
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Re: this is for jaymz (and anyone else interested)

Postby charvie » Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:18 pm

Light a man a fire and he's warm for a night, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
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